Thank you for taking the time to speak with us today, even though you’re on a private trip. You’ve just arrived in Tokyo, right? What are your impressions of the city?

This is my third time in Tokyo. The first time, I stayed in very nice Airbnb in Meguro, and last year, I stayed in Ginza. This time, I chose Roppongi, which is kind of center of Tokyo, right? We arrived yesterday, and we all had a jet lag this morning and woke up like 11. (laughs) We were taking a walk around Azabudai Hills.

That's nice. Azabudai Hills is a newly developed area.

It’s a clean and beautiful city, but it feels very commercial and lacks a little bit of creativity.

Yeah, I agree. By the way, here we brought a small gift for you. This is a traditional craft from Hakone, a kumiki (wooden puzzle) daruma from Yamanaka Kumiki Workshop.

Wow! Thank you! how does it work…? Oh wow, this is tricky!

Once you take it apart, it’s quite difficult to put back together. Even Bruno Munari was said to be a big fan of these wooden puzzles.

I’ll play around with it when I get back home. Thank you for such a wonderful gift. Bruno Munari is one of my inspirations.

Yeah I know. Our name, FANTASIA, actually comes from one of his books.

I remember reading in one of his books about Japanese design. He talks about how Japanese people designed homes in a way that you can open the doors in all ways and the air circulates through the entire home. There was also a chapter about tableware. He noted that in Japan, since meals are prepared in the kitchen, only one set of tableware is needed at the dining table. In contrast, in Italy, each dish is served with its own set of plates, which means you need a large cupboard to store them—and in turn, a bigger house to accommodate the furniture. What was the name of the book...I will text you later.

He has influenced many Japanese designers and artists as well.

Have you ever been to Italy?

Our honeymoon was in Italy, actually. We traveled to Milan, Florence, and Venice.

Venice is one of my favorite cities. There's this great street in the Cannaregio district—it's lined with small restaurants and bars, and there is no tourist. Next time you come to Italy, let me know! My friend has a boat, so we can take you around.

That sounds amazing! I’ll definitely take you up on that. You’re currently living in London, right? Did you move there from Italy?

Yes, I was born and raised in Milan, and I met my wife there as well. Then, about 12 years ago, we moved to London together.

What made you decide to move?

I needed a better place to build a tech team for app development. Italy is an incredible country for design, art, fashion, and food, but at the time, it wasn’t the best place to launch a tech-driven business. That’s why we moved to London. It was right around the time I was starting Depop, the app I worked on before DELLI.

We first learned about Depop three or four years ago. We heard that there was a fashion app from the UK that was becoming hugely popular among young people. Then in 2021, we read that you had sold Depop and were now launching a food platform. Today, we’d love to focus on DELLI, but first, could you tell us a bit about your journey leading up to this? Depop started in Italy, then moved its base to London, and eventually expanded into the US, right?

Yes, when we first started Depop, we were just a four-person team. By the time we sold the company three years ago, we had grown to 400 employees.

Wow, that’s incredible growth. We were surprised to hear that Etsy was the company that acquired Depop—it was all over the news. Before founding Depop, you were running a sunglasses brand, right?

Yes,Retrosuperfuture. I started it in Milan in 2007 with my brother, and I was responsible for product design. My brother is still running the company in Milan, and it’s doing really well.
But today, I wear a Japanese brand. Don’t tell my brother. [Laughs]

Oh, Where are they from?

EYEVAN. [Laughs]

Retrosuperfuture is imported to Japan as well.

Before that, I was publishing a fashion magazine called PIG. It launched in 1998, and I was 24 at the time.

PIG was such a creative magazine. I can’t believe you started it at 24. That’s around the time most people are just graduating from university.

I actually dropped out of university, so I never graduated.

What were you studying?

Industrial design. That’s why Bruno Munari is one of my idols. He was originally an architect but later decided to become an industrial designer, even though back then, industrial design wasn’t considered a prestigious profession.

I didn’t know that.

And so when an architect wouldn't find a job, they would design objects like chairs, doors, handles, bottles, glasses-small things. But non of them wanted people to know that they were designing such objects because it meant that they didn't find jobs as an architect.

So designing large buildings was the most respected profession at the time.

Exactly. For example, Achille Castiglioni designed an incredible light switch, but no one knew it was his work. He himself never really spoke about it. The same goes for Munari, Sottsass, and other Italian architects. But they eventually became world-famous for their exceptional furniture and product designs. That’s when industrial design started to be recognized as a legitimate profession.

Was it their influence that led you to study industrial design?

Yes. I admired Munari, and I was also a fan of Castiglioni. I also liked car designers like Pininfarina and Giugiaro. Back then, my dream was to start my own industrial design studio. Actually I still have that dream.

But instead, while still in school, you launched PIG magazine.

Yes. My brother and I created a fashion magazine, which eventually led to making sunglasses. Later, I created the fashion app Depop, and now I’m running the food platform DELLI.

You’re like non stop running—constantly building new businesses and pushing projects forward without taking a break.

It wasn’t intentional, but it ended up that way. Retrosuperfuture was a success, but the magazine business was tough. It was around the time the internet started to become widespread, and print magazines were rapidly losing advertisers. That’s when I had the idea to create an e-commerce site where we could sell all the fashion items we featured in the magazine.

Ah! So Depop originally started as a solution to the challenges of running a magazine. The idea was to create an e-commerce site connected to the magazine.

Yes, but rather than a website, I immediately thought of designing it as an app. I started sketching out the app’s interface myself and thought, "This looks good." Then I had another idea—what if it became a platform where anyone could sell anything with just one tap? I had a strong sense that this could be a huge business opportunity, so I talked to my brother and said, "I want to start an app company." After discussing it, we decided that he would continue running the sunglasses brand and the magazine, while I would focus on building the app.

Were the early users of Depop from PIG magazine’s readership and community?

Yes. Stylists, designers, vintage collectors, sneaker collectors—they were the first to start listing items on Depop.

So you could say your career began in fashion?

Actually, my first job was as a graphic designer. I had to start working after dropping out of university, so I got a job at a design studio. Then, I launched PIG magazine and spent ten years in publishing. During that time, I started the sunglasses brand, and I moved onto the app. I thought it's just going to be five years to launch this app and then five years became 10 and then it became 12. And so I haven't started the design studio yet. Maybe soon. [Laughs]

The story behind Depop’s founding is fascinating—I’d love to hear more. You originally wanted to build an e-commerce site for the magazine, but then the idea evolved into an app. What was your thought process?

The idea to create an app came from an article I read—an interview with the founder of Pinterest. He was originally an architect, and in the interview, he said, "Many designers and architects are now starting to design apps." That made sense to me. The work of designers and architects was expanding from physical objects to digital ones. People were designing virtual versions of calculators, flashlights, notepads, maps, and more. I had always wanted to be a designer, and if the future of design included creating apps, I thought ”I want to try and do an app.”

I see—you realized that the field of industrial design was expanding into app design.

Yes. When Apple’s Steve Jobs first introduced apps, their visuals and interactions looked and felt like real-world materials and textures. The bookshelf in the Books app had a wooden texture, and the Calculator app had buttons with shadows, making them look and feel like real objects. That design approach was called skeuomorphism. Around 2010, when the App Store was still relatively empty, I started researching a man named Jeff Raskin—he had worked under Steve Jobs in the early 1980s.

He’s famous for leading the development of the Macintosh.

Yeah. And he came up with this theory, I think it was 1984 or 1985 around that period.He said one day there's going to be a device with a touchscreen. That screen will have many buttons. And when you touch a button, the device will transform into that object. Press the calculator button, and this is a calculator. When you press the torch button and now this is a torch. Press the phone button, and now it becomes a phone. But when the device is turned off, it becomes nothing at all.Steve Jobs took this idea and used it to shape the first iPhone interface. As I researched these concepts, my focus shifted from web design to app design. Depop was born simply because I wanted to create an app.

So it all started from an interest in creating an app. It’s fascinating how that curiosity led your initial business idea to evolve and change so drastically.

Yes, it developed from a simple fashion e-commerce site into a marketplace, and eventually into what Depop became. In 2011, this was the very first sketch I made. After that, I designed the interface using Adobe Illustrator—back then, Figma and Sketch didn’t exist yet. I did all the screenshots and I put them in a keynote presentation and I went to an investor and I showed the app and they liked it.

So you raised investment rather than funding it yourself?

Yes. The investor was in Venice, a place called H-FARM. I actually spent a whole year going there to build the app prototype.

H-FARM? What kind of place is that?

It’s an entrepreneurship accelerator. They have programming and design schools, as well as incubator investors on site. This is where I slept.

Wow. That looks very relaxing with a window.

Every Friday, I’d drive back to Milan to see my wife, and every Monday, I’d drive back to Venice. I kept up that routine for a whole year. That’s also where I found the partners who helped me build the business.

That must have been a tough year. Your wife has been by your side throughout your entrepreneurial journey since then. I read in an article that you once described her as a "Saint."

Yes, that's true. I don’t think Depop would have succeeded without her. She never worked at Depop, but she gave me a lot of invaluable advice...we'll get to that later.

Alright, we’ve arrived at the interview location. This is SKAC, a newly opened art center in Kameari. It was created by SKWAT, a collective project group. In fact, today is its opening day. Since this space also serves as a distribution hub for art books and records, I thought it would be a fitting place to talk about DELLI. After all, you're also working to change the world of distribution.

This is an amazing place. I’d love to take a closer look later. So, how long have you been doing your company for?

It’s been four years now. Our main work is branding support for clients, but also we have this interview project. Our perspective is that "business is an entrepreneur’s form of expression." That’s the idea behind this interview series, GESTURES.

That's brilliant!

The name GESTURES actually comes from the Italian designer and children’s book author Leo Lionni. Do you know ? He’s well known in Japan for his children’s book Swimmy.

Leo Lionni? I don’t think I know. I'll check out later.

He once said, "The things we make are our gestures." In other words, it all starts from a personal thought. I believe this is an essential perspective in business and creative projects as well.
A few years ago, we first learned about Depop. Everyone around us was inspired by what Depop was doing. Then, three years ago, you sold Depop and launched the app business DELLI. Today, we’d love to hear about the thoughts and ideas behind that journey.

Ah that's very nice. Let’s do it.

First, how did DELLI get started?

The story of how DELLI came to be, right? After selling Depop, a fashion marketplace app, I started discussing with my wife what I should do next. We were thinking about what we could do that would truly help people. As you said earlier, which I think is a very important point, anything we do needs to be something that brings some good to the world.

It’s interesting that, after selling such a big business, you discussed your next move with your wife. Starting something new is often driven by very personal motivation.

At that time, I became really interested in exploring new kinds of food. With less work, I had more time, so I would go shopping, discover brands and products I had never seen before, and try them. I even experimented with a ketogenic diet—a low-carb lifestyle.

So you were focusing on your health?

Yes, and I personally felt the changes that food can have on the body. It’s obvious, but food truly influences your life. I even went to a clinic to get blood tests done to see the effects.

Wow, you got your blood tested!! That’s quite thorough.

Big food producers no longer prioritize where they source their ingredients or how their products are made. They rely heavily on chemicals, and their production methods are often opaque. But if we choose healthier foods, we can live better, work better, and ultimately feel happier. Plus, mass-produced food has a negative impact on the environment. That’s when I started thinking, “Okay, maybe food is an area where we want to contribute and do something good.”

So that was the starting point for DELLI’s concept.

At first, I thought about creating a supermarket that only sells vegan food or a wine shop that exclusively stocks natural wines. Then one day, I was talking to a friend, and they showed me an Instagram account. It had a picture of a jarred sauce. The account was called Drew—he’s a filmmaker and photographer, and he was also making chili sauce.

Does he run a restaurant?

No, he makes chili sauce in his home kitchen, bottles it, and sells it. This is him.

Ah, I recognize his face from DELLI! So filmmaking and photography are his main professions?

My friend said, "There are so many people like him—really cool people." It seemed like creative individuals were starting to get involved with food—filmmakers, photographers, fashion designers, and people working in advertising and graphic design. Some of them had no choice but to shift into food-related work due to the pandemic reducing job opportunities. But many others were drawn to food simply because they wanted to create something meaningful.

Now that you mention it, I can sense a similar movement happening in Japan.

As I kept following Drew on Instagram, I started noticing more and more people like him—independent, small-scale food makers emerging all over London. These people wanted to sell what they created. They were growing a fan base on Instagram, launching their own e-commerce sites, and dreaming of one day having their products on supermarket shelves. The more I observed this trend, the more I thought—What if I built an app that allowed them to sell their products? If enough small producers joined, the platform itself would gain real value.

And that’s how DELLI was born—like a social media-driven marketplace. You started from your personal exploration of food, discovered a new wave of independent makers, and recognized their talent and needs. Are all the creators on DELLI based in London?

Yes, they’re all based in London. But many of them bring flavors from other parts of the world. For example, there’s a woman from Hong Kong who makes cakes using pandan leaves, a plant native to Asia.

Interesting. I saw this on DELLI’s Instagram—what is SUPPER CLUBBING?

It’s a series of small pop-up dinner events that we host irregularly. We collaborate with the makers who sell food on DELLI and organize events where they cook and serve their dishes. We also sell tickets for these events. These makers are not just producers; many of them are also highly skilled chefs.

So the DELLI community is coming to life offline as well. That sounds fun.

Yes, SUPPER CLUBBING is actually trending among young people in London right now.

Is it? Very interesting.

Young people don’t go to restaurants as often anymore. The main reason is cost, but there’s also a desire for new experiences. Within that demand, SUPPER CLUBBING functions really well. In other words, today’s social networks aren’t just happening online—they’re taking place in real-life spaces. DELLI’s events always have lines of people waiting to join.

So a new kind of social space is emerging through food.

Exactly. There are different types of SUPPER CLUBS. Recently, we hosted a wine tasting event. It’s also a great way for people to try new foods. Some of the makers on DELLI create products that are unfamiliar to most people, so these events help introduce them in an engaging way.

Let’s talk about design. I’ve printed out some images of DELLI’s app screens and advertisements. The photos are stunning—I personally love them.

Everything is intentionally designed. We wanted pictures that felt more realistic and people having more fun. This photo is a great example—it captures their rebellious, rule-breaking spirit. That’s the essence of DELLI.

Where does this visual style come from?

I was inspired by apartamento, an interior design magazine. Its creator, Nacho Alegre, is actually a friend of mine. He shared his ideas with me back when he was first planning the magazine. They include personal, unpolished photos—like messy rooms—within their pages. They often use strobe lighting, which captures moments in a very raw and authentic way.

Apartamento completely changed the way lifestyle photography is captured. The web design of this GESTURES series was also influenced by the spirit of that magazine.

DELLI’s branding was developed in collaboration with a design studio in London called HATO. The founder, Ken, is actually from Japan.

Really? That’s surprising! How did you find him?

You know how when you follow someone on Instagram, it suggests other users you might like? That’s how I came across him. I checked out his past work, really liked it, and asked him to handle the entire branding for DELLI. You’ve probably noticed that a lot of DELLI’s photos show makers holding their products in front of their faces. We use a lot of imagery that includes hands. Look at this shot—it’s incredible, isn’t it?

Yes, there are definitely a lot of close-ups of hands. What do hands represent for DELLI?

For us, hands mean “Made by someone”. And for that we got inspired by Bruno Munari—he often used hands in his work. Enzo Mari as well. When you watch someone preparing food, it gives a sense of reassurance, doesn’t it? It feels more personal than seeing food made by a machine. With DELLI, I want users to not only see the products but also the people behind them. That’s why we use so many photos of hands holding food.

There are also many images where people hold food in front of their faces.

Yes, that’s intentional. It gives the impression of "I made this!" We want to capture both the maker’s face and their creation in the same picture. It’s like they’re saying, "Look at me! And look at what I made!"

They’re taking pride in their work.

Exactly. We also frequently use strobe lighting. It helps create a sense of immediacy—like you’re witnessing the moment up close, whether it’s the act of making food or eating it. Sometimes, we even photograph empty plates after meals. But lately, I’ve been considering stepping away from that strobe-lit style.

Why is that?

I feel like we may have overused it. Photographers in London are now moving away from digital cameras and using only film cameras and iPhones. A photographer friend of mine said, "Now, everyone takes photos with an iPhone. My goal is to take the best possible photos using just an iPhone."

So you’re saying iPhones capture a more real feel?

Looking back at DELLI’s photos, I’ve been thinking about how to make them feel even more real. More like snapshots—photos taken without worrying about camera settings. Ten years ago, when I was working on magazines, we shot everything on film. Then digital cameras became capable of producing incredible images. And now, we have iPhones. The question is—can we take great photos with them? Or maybe, we need to first redefine what great photography even means.

Even just talking about photography, I can sense DELLI’s core values and your deep insights. The way small-scale makers connect with their fans and drop their food products on this app really reflects the modern reality of commerce. I imagine that this kind of visual storytelling also gives courage to the creators themselves.

Back in 2017, when I was working on Depop, I came up with the brand message: "Unfollow me, but follow you." It means—don’t follow others, follow yourself. I think this applies to both fashion and food. Believe in your own taste, your own creativity.

That’s a powerful and straightforward message. In a world where people are constantly influenced by algorithm-driven recommendations, it must really resonate.

Now the whole idea is a bit cheesy. [Laughs]

Did Depop’s branding change after that?

Yes, we later refined the branding and made it a bit cooler than it was in the beginning. We also created official guidelines for fonts and photography.

So, would you say that while the branding evolved, the core values remained the same?

Yes. The essence of Depop was Unfollow—in other words, don’t follow the rules. So even though we created brand guidelines, we also told people, “Forget all of this if you want”. If a brand encourages its users to break the rules, then brand itself should also be willing to break its own. The logo, the branding, the photography—none of it had to strictly follow what was originally decided.

Both Depop and DELLI definitely have a rebellious feel. The creators and sellers on these platforms also seem to be unconventional and fascinating individuals.

Yes, I really liked the idea of making rules and then breaking them. At the time, no one else was doing that.

And the approach itself becomes a message to the users—it’s quite meta.

Whenever a business starts a new project, they usually go to an advertising agency and say, "We want to build a brand. Can you help us?" Then the agency pulls out a book and starts explaining, "This is how you create a brand." They set a bunch of rules.

I know exactly what you mean. The agency ends up controlling the brand.

Yes—colors, photography style, tone of voice. And if the business strays even slightly from those rules, they’re told, "You can’t do that." But at Depop, we did things differently. We set rules, but we also made it clear that it was okay to break them.

Did you take that approach because you thought it would resonate with younger generations? Or was it simply because that’s how you wanted to do things?

It’s a bit of both. On one hand, I relate to the rebellious spirit of young people—I’ve never fully grown up myself. But at the same time, I felt it was an important message for them: Don’t be bound by convention.

Your businesses always seem to spread among young people. I feel like I’m beginning to understand why.

When raising children, parents often say, "Don’t do this, don’t do that." But that doesn’t teach them how to think for themselves. So how should we teach them? I believe you should give children rules—but also teach them that it’s okay to break them.

I see. So you introduce rules, but as something that can and should be bent.

Exactly. If that child grows up to become a photographer, they’ll likely do things differently. But if they were raised with strict, unquestioned rules, what happens? They’ll look up famous photographers and say, "I want to take photos like them. I want to be like them." Then someone will see their work and say, "Wow, your photos look just like that famous photographer’s." But that’s not your goal.

This conversation reveals a lot about your perspective. You believe in human creativity. Through your businesses, you’re encouraging people to break boundaries and create.

Everyone should create their own work.

Now I understand why your businesses resonate with us so much. We want entrepreneurs to break free from the so-called rules surrounding business and build something with their own hands. This GESTURES series is ultimately about creating a "human-centered business magazine." We feel that the current business mindset in Japan lacks a focus on originality. Everything—management methods, business strategies—is approached in a design-driven, highly structured way.

That’s great! I love that. You should write a business book—something like "Anti-Rules for Business." [Laughs]

Is DELLI aiming to create a world where independent makers can earn a sustainable income? Is that the core purpose of the service?

That’s a great question. Can I borrow a pen?

Of course. Oh, you wrote "FOOD JOURNEY." The journey of a food entrepreneur.

Yes. It starts with making food at home in your kitchen. Then, you begin selling it on Instagram. Next, a small local shop agrees to stock your products. At first, it’s just one shop, but then that grows to 10, then 20. Production expands. Eventually, supermarkets start carrying your products. And one day, maybe people all over the world will be able to buy them.

It truly is a journey toward the future.

Even a brand like Häagen-Dazs must have gone through many stages before becoming a globally recognized name. It’s a long journey. If this is the typical path for food entrepreneurs, DELLI wouldn’t be able to support them through every single stage.

That’s true.

As businesses grow, they have to build warehouses across the world, and things become more complex. DELLI focuses on makers within a specific range—from the stage of "selling at local shops" to "selling at local supermarkets" level.

So, these are still independent makers—people with dreams—who haven’t yet moved too far beyond the personal level.

Yes. Our goal is to establish this business model successfully in London by 2025. Once that’s working well, we plan to expand across the UK and then into the US. If that goes well, we’ll be able to shift our focus toward educational support for makers who are still at the earliest stages of their journey.

Educational support?

Yes. Imagine you have a passion for making ice cream and often make it at home. When your friends come over, you serve them your ice cream, and they’re amazed. They say, "This is incredible! You should sell this!" But you don’t know where to start. That’s when one of them tells you, "There’s DELLI!"

So DELLI becomes the platform that helps people take that first step into selling. I can picture it.

Exactly. Then, you start looking for a space where you can legally produce ice cream, building your brand, finding a designer, taking professional photos—there’s a lot to do. You might spend six months to a year just figuring out these early steps. That’s where we need to step in and provide guidance on the journey to launching a business.

Helping entrepreneurs grow and develop their businesses.

Yes. Our goal is to focus on education by 2027. Once a maker reaches the point where they can start selling, the rest is relatively straightforward. They produce their ice cream, prepare their stock, and simply send it to DELLI’s warehouse in London. From there, they can start selling immediately.

Wait—DELLI has its own warehouse?

Yes, DELLI has its own warehouse. That’s one of the key differences from Depop. When someone buys a product through the DELLI app, we handle the shipping directly from our warehouse.

I didn’t know that. So makers entrust DELLI with their product shipments?

Exactly. The reason we need a warehouse is because of shipping costs. Most DELLI users buy multiple products at once. If each seller had to ship their products individually, every order would incur multiple shipping fees. That would either increase the cost for the buyer or force the seller to cut into their profits.

Initially, we let sellers handle their own shipping, but it didn’t work well. For small independent makers, fulfilling and shipping orders can be a huge burden. So now, if a maker produces 100 ice creams, they send them all to DELLI. If a user buys ice cream from one seller, chocolate from another, and chili sauce from a third, we package everything together and ship it in a single box—with just one shipping fee.

It sounds like DELLI’s growth is also driven by its warehouse system and consolidated shipping model.

For sellers, it’s simple—they bring a box full of their products to the warehouse, scan the barcode, and after that, they don’t have to manage anything. DELLI isn’t just an e-commerce site or an app that connects buyers and sellers. It’s a system that makes selling as simple as possible for makers.

Earlier, you talked about the FOOD JOURNEY. When a maker reaches the stage of significantly growing their business, do they eventually "graduate" from DELLI?

It depends on the person. Some people find happiness in keeping things small-scale. Others might make food only on weekends as a side project. If someone wants to scale up to mass production, they might eventually move on from DELLI and explore new opportunities. From the beginning, DELLI has focused on makers who create good products—meaning those with transparency in their ingredients and production methods, food that people can trust. That’s why we prioritize natural, health-conscious products.

So you’re really highlighting the appeal of small-scale producers.

Yes, but this is just how things stand right now. If we were to launch DELLI in Japan in the future, we would build a warehouse there as well. As DELLI expands globally, we’ll develop a network of warehouses around the world. At that stage, we might even be able to support makers who want to scale up their businesses.

That’s an incredible vision. If DELLI ever comes to Japan, I’d be excited to see it in action!

Whether it’s DELLI, Depop, or even your earlier magazine PIG, there’s a strong sense of creativity in everything you do. But at the core of all your businesses, I see one common thread: the power of building strong communities. Creating a compelling community through a business is incredibly difficult—how do you approach it?

The process of building a community is fascinating. To sustain a business, you need to generate revenue. But when companies start focusing too much on profit, they lose sight of their consumers. And a company that neglects its consumers can never build a community.

Never?

No, because there’s no trust. The most important thing when building a community is to genuinely care about your customers. When problems arise, always prioritize them. If you do that consistently, people will begin to trust you. And once you earn their trust, they will follow you anywhere.

So, a community is built on trust that comes from putting customers first.

Yes, but it’s not easy. Balancing business priorities is incredibly difficult, and there’s always an internal struggle. We went through a lot of challenges at Depop.

Really? Do you have any specific examples?

In 2014, we ran a campaign featuring Chiara Ferragni, a hugely popular Italian influencer. At the time, she was famous for posting selfies wearing Louis Vuitton and other high-end fashion brands.

Of course! She is well-known. I think a lot of people in Japan follow her on Instagram.

Initially, I was against using her. I felt like her style didn’t align with Depop’s identity. Back then, Depop was still in its early stages, and we were focused on building trust with our community. I believed the style of the platform was crucial. But my wife insisted we should bring Chiara on board. When I said, "We don’t need a blogger on Depop," she replied, "There isn’t a single person in Italy who doesn’t know her. If she opens a Depop account, a huge number of people will start using the app. Trust me, just try it."

So it was a necessary move to increase users.

Exactly. And in the end, we did it—and it worked. We gained a million new users because of her. Bringing her on board, other bloggers followed, creating accounts as well.

That’s incredible.

The campaign turned out to be a huge success. If she didn't come on board, the company would have failed. At the time, we didn’t have strong enough numbers to impress investors. We were under pressure to deliver results. That’s why my wife pushed for the campaign—she saw the opportunity.

Knowing there would be sacrifices?

Yes. While the platform grew rapidly, we started losing some of the original creative users, early adapters. But even during that time, we were strategically waiting for the right moment to reinvest in rebuilding the community. So, by 2017—three years later—we made a conscious effort to refocus Depop as a space for more creative people. We actively worked on rebuilding the community.

So, in the process of gaining something, you also lost something—and then made an effort to regain something new. That’s how you keep moving forward.

We had to rebuild trust with our users. We partnered with a creative agency in London and went through a complete rebranding, making significant changes to how we operated.

And that’s when you introduced the message: "Unfollow me, but follow you."—Encouraging users to trust themselves rather than follow others?

Exactly. Over time—over the course of years—Depop once again became a platform for creative and cool people.

And eventually, the platform expanded into the US, leading to its acquisition in 2021. I had no idea there were so many twists and turns along the way.

A company has to make people happy while also making money. Some businesses fail before they even have a chance to build trust with their users. The challenge is to create a business model that allows you to sustain the company while building that trust.

That’s such a realistic and inspiring perspective. I think a lot of people will find courage in your story. The way you structure your business, express branding, and communicate with customers—it all stems from your view of humanity. This conversation has been truly exciting.

Thank you. My nephew, who traveled with me to Japan, just arrived and is pretty tired, so I think we’ll have dinner at the hotel tonight. He is very passionate about Japanese manga so he wants to go and discover old Japanese manga. And I’m here to shop for some new camera equipment.

Then Nakano Broadway is on your list! He will love it. Hope you'll have a great stay in Tokyo. And thank you again for taking the time to speak with us during your family trip. I’ll come visit you in London next time.

Please do!　We'll show you the DELLI warehouse. If you need to ask me more questions in the meantime in the next day just call.